1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:15,010 [Music] 2 00:00:21,769 --> 00:00:18,439 so thanks thanks for the invitation to 3 00:00:23,359 --> 00:00:21,779 come here the organization was very 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:23,369 efficient organization it's a pleasure 5 00:00:29,950 --> 00:00:27,330 to be here in in Japan again beautiful 6 00:00:33,979 --> 00:00:29,960 country and I was enjoying previous days 7 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:33,989 now I need to kind of concentrate and 8 00:00:39,770 --> 00:00:37,710 try to give you my my view on on 9 00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:39,780 something that is very big which is the 10 00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:42,750 emergence of a bias receptor it's a huge 11 00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:46,110 word for me but I'm gonna agree with 12 00:00:51,020 --> 00:00:49,200 what Eric said in the morning and part 13 00:00:52,910 --> 00:00:51,030 of it at least i think i'm going to 14 00:00:56,510 --> 00:00:52,920 concentrate more on what I think that 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:00:56,520 the main players in in this game and 16 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:00,770 emergence of a biosphere which are cells 17 00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:04,110 microorganisms okay and how we could 18 00:01:08,060 --> 00:01:06,240 work what kind of models do we have of 19 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:08,070 the emergence of these of these types of 20 00:01:16,179 --> 00:01:13,430 systems there are very complex molecular 21 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:16,189 machines molecular their factories of 22 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:20,640 molecules okay in a and they is not just 23 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:22,590 a question of having molecules together 24 00:01:27,469 --> 00:01:25,560 and it's a question of you know the 25 00:01:29,149 --> 00:01:27,479 spatial organization they heterogeneity 26 00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:29,159 that you have there okay so it's not 27 00:01:33,859 --> 00:01:31,200 it's not it's more complex we just have 28 00:01:39,730 --> 00:01:33,869 having a bag of of molecules like we can 29 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:39,740 see here in these metabolic pathways but 30 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:41,880 this metal is emits a vectorial 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:45,000 metabolism this is one of my my my 32 00:01:50,389 --> 00:01:47,450 messages today that when we talk about 33 00:01:55,219 --> 00:01:50,399 the game of life the game that those 34 00:01:57,230 --> 00:01:55,229 players play okay and carrying out the 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:57,240 metabolism metabolism takes place in 36 00:02:01,550 --> 00:01:58,890 heterogeneous conditions in where 37 00:02:05,450 --> 00:02:01,560 different phases are involved not just 38 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:05,460 water solution okay and so there are 39 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:08,610 some areas in cell that can be treated 40 00:02:12,890 --> 00:02:10,470 as a pool but some other areas in which 41 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:12,900 the crowding is so big that you have to 42 00:02:16,270 --> 00:02:13,910 treat them 43 00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:16,280 and also you have of course membranes 44 00:02:21,490 --> 00:02:19,040 and I'm going to most of the of the talk 45 00:02:23,590 --> 00:02:21,500 I'm going to be focusing on how you know 46 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:23,600 you have to start with chemistry's that 47 00:02:33,310 --> 00:02:30,490 it's like transport processes that 48 00:02:35,050 --> 00:02:33,320 involve different phases not just water 49 00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:35,060 solution okay so that's going to be one 50 00:02:40,780 --> 00:02:38,510 of my so when we we go from this 51 00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:40,790 complexity that we see in in living 52 00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:43,310 organisms in microorganisms and we try 53 00:02:47,740 --> 00:02:46,340 to go down either ships from point of 54 00:02:49,930 --> 00:02:47,750 view of the physiology that could be a 55 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:49,940 minimal cell we have some news this year 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:52,820 about how could a minimal cell look like 57 00:03:00,220 --> 00:02:55,970 although we haven't learned enough about 58 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:00,230 what one-third of those genes actually 59 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:02,810 code for and there is a lot of work to 60 00:03:07,930 --> 00:03:06,170 be done from here to understand the 61 00:03:10,660 --> 00:03:07,940 functions of a lot of the components 62 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:10,670 here but we are making progress in the 63 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:13,610 you know top-down approaches and also 64 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:16,430 when we do phylogenies and compiled if I 65 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:19,970 lodging is trying to see what kind of 66 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:22,130 good what kind of the route of treat the 67 00:03:27,820 --> 00:03:24,920 root of that tree of life that we know 68 00:03:30,580 --> 00:03:27,830 that the result of the evolutionary 69 00:03:33,790 --> 00:03:30,590 process that took place on the earth 70 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:33,800 okay we see that there are different 71 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:35,780 features and this is one of the 72 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:41,750 fundamental say advances from molecular 73 00:03:48,940 --> 00:03:45,050 biology last century okay to see that is 74 00:03:52,390 --> 00:03:48,950 so much in common in all types of living 75 00:03:54,820 --> 00:03:52,400 organisms and different people have 76 00:03:57,100 --> 00:03:54,830 focused of different features that make 77 00:03:58,900 --> 00:03:57,110 us all these features and make us be 78 00:04:01,630 --> 00:03:58,910 sure that there was a common origin for 79 00:04:04,890 --> 00:04:01,640 all living beings that we inhabit the 80 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:04,900 earth today okay and traditionally 81 00:04:11,729 --> 00:04:08,209 probably because of the influence of 82 00:04:14,110 --> 00:04:11,739 molecular biology the question was 83 00:04:16,870 --> 00:04:14,120 articulated in this way with people 84 00:04:19,210 --> 00:04:16,880 we're focusing on on the biopolymer the 85 00:04:21,940 --> 00:04:19,220 critical biopolymers and these are DNA 86 00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:21,950 proteins and when ribozymes were found 87 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:24,590 we thought that we had a 88 00:04:30,970 --> 00:04:26,810 literally an answer for the urging and 89 00:04:33,460 --> 00:04:30,980 it was RNA okay but the focus was 90 00:04:36,490 --> 00:04:33,470 probably too much on biopolymers okay 91 00:04:41,710 --> 00:04:36,500 and trying to get chemical shortcuts to 92 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:41,720 biopolymers okay and hoping that natural 93 00:04:47,469 --> 00:04:44,210 selection would do the job once you get 94 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:47,479 to an RNA world or prerna world okay so 95 00:04:55,420 --> 00:04:50,630 I'm very critical I mean I think the RNA 96 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:55,430 had a role to play at some point but I'm 97 00:05:00,850 --> 00:04:58,130 rather critical with the traditional way 98 00:05:03,790 --> 00:05:00,860 of conceiving the RNA world just as RNA 99 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:03,800 molecules population of RNA molecules so 100 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:05,510 even if we get self-replicating 101 00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:07,310 molecules imagine that you know I don't 102 00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:11,740 know Jerry Joyce manages is some someday 103 00:05:15,490 --> 00:05:14,300 we have the problem of origins of RNA 104 00:05:18,129 --> 00:05:15,500 what does it come from what kind of 105 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:18,139 scenario what kind of organization what 106 00:05:23,740 --> 00:05:20,530 kind of system that it comes from and 107 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:23,750 also is if we manage the synthesis 108 00:05:31,270 --> 00:05:26,900 imagine that joan sutherland goes 109 00:05:33,370 --> 00:05:31,280 forward and and you can actually solve 110 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:33,380 the problem of the origin of RNA and you 111 00:05:39,070 --> 00:05:35,930 have RNA population where do RNA 112 00:05:41,710 --> 00:05:39,080 molecules and natural selection lead you 113 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:41,720 to okay and this is a big assumption 114 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:45,130 that they will lead you to a to excel 115 00:05:49,930 --> 00:05:48,500 metallizing cell okay but if you get 116 00:05:53,790 --> 00:05:49,940 already there why do you need a 117 00:05:56,710 --> 00:05:53,800 metabolite in cell to begin with right 118 00:05:58,089 --> 00:05:56,720 so I think that there are many many 119 00:06:00,100 --> 00:05:58,099 problems with these assumptions about 120 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:00,110 the LNA world and i am trying I'm trying 121 00:06:07,150 --> 00:06:03,039 to come up with a completely different 122 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:07,160 approach the problem of origin okay and 123 00:06:13,629 --> 00:06:10,880 this is based on a different conception 124 00:06:16,659 --> 00:06:13,639 of the living okay instead of going for 125 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:16,669 the molecules of life the biopolymers 126 00:06:22,890 --> 00:06:20,690 and trying to get chemical synthetic 127 00:06:25,719 --> 00:06:22,900 shortcuts shortcuts to those molecules 128 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:25,729 and I think about life in a more kind of 129 00:06:31,150 --> 00:06:28,370 systemic way okay systems approach and 130 00:06:32,770 --> 00:06:31,160 that's that comes from a from a 131 00:06:35,050 --> 00:06:32,780 definition that I'm gonna I'm not going 132 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:35,060 to fight for today if you want we can 133 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:37,830 discuss it in the 134 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:42,630 the questions time but the most 135 00:06:46,670 --> 00:06:44,910 important thing about this is life is 136 00:06:49,820 --> 00:06:46,680 that we conceive of life as a systems 137 00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:49,830 property therefore it's a combination we 138 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:52,560 shouldn't focus on any each of these 139 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:55,290 molecules right it's an organization is 140 00:06:59,720 --> 00:06:57,090 a complex organization and we should 141 00:07:02,660 --> 00:06:59,730 also also take into account this dynamic 142 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:02,670 and complex organization when we 143 00:07:08,150 --> 00:07:05,310 simplify things in the origins of light 144 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:08,160 models okay that's it that's the basic 145 00:07:16,010 --> 00:07:11,610 so these type of scheme I'm presenting 146 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:16,020 here is changing I think there's a lot 147 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:19,530 of proto cellular kind of modeling these 148 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:23,210 days both empirical and and 149 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:26,490 computational and we are becoming more 150 00:07:30,620 --> 00:07:28,560 and more aware probably that you know if 151 00:07:34,630 --> 00:07:30,630 you take a different type of conception 152 00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:34,640 of life you probably need to put 153 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:37,080 metabolism and compartmentalization that 154 00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:39,870 was thought about as later Lake commerce 155 00:07:45,070 --> 00:07:41,430 in the origins of life you have to put 156 00:07:50,060 --> 00:07:45,080 push them towards earlier and earlier 157 00:07:51,950 --> 00:07:50,070 stages okay so regardless of what Jack 158 00:07:56,630 --> 00:07:51,960 szostak says don't pay attention to that 159 00:07:58,970 --> 00:07:56,640 paper your conception of life this is 160 00:08:02,600 --> 00:07:58,980 the first home message for for younger 161 00:08:05,210 --> 00:08:02,610 maybe researchers your conception of 162 00:08:08,030 --> 00:08:05,220 life plays a fundamental role when 163 00:08:09,950 --> 00:08:08,040 designing your research line you can 164 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:09,960 keep it hidden or you can make it 165 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:12,570 explicit if you make the effort of 166 00:08:19,330 --> 00:08:15,090 coming out with it with a let's say a 167 00:08:22,030 --> 00:08:19,340 definition as please definition but 168 00:08:24,530 --> 00:08:22,040 that's the way it is in fact I I 169 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:24,540 exchanged some emails with the five 170 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:27,120 years ago with with Jack about this and 171 00:08:32,390 --> 00:08:28,830 he told me that he wrote via the paper 172 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:32,400 be denied in anger so I think the let's 173 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:35,450 say this is absolutely clear that if 174 00:08:39,620 --> 00:08:38,010 depending on how you conceive of the 175 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:39,630 leading phenomenon you're going to do 176 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:41,250 some things in the lab or some others 177 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:44,010 okay he wanted to a stress that you need 178 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:45,600 to do things in the lab you to do the 179 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:48,150 experiments okay but then you should 180 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:49,410 also 181 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:51,870 having your head at least a clear 182 00:08:56,269 --> 00:08:53,730 definitely or at least make yourself 183 00:08:58,369 --> 00:08:56,279 let's say pier with what what is your 184 00:09:03,040 --> 00:08:58,379 conception and make it clear also for 185 00:09:05,509 --> 00:09:03,050 the other researchers because it's a so 186 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:05,519 for example this is a very different 187 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:08,370 type of way of conceiving life grantees 188 00:09:15,980 --> 00:09:12,990 okay which you have a more complex type 189 00:09:19,610 --> 00:09:15,990 of setting more dynamic let's just okay 190 00:09:24,199 --> 00:09:19,620 so when we make models of origins of 191 00:09:26,509 --> 00:09:24,209 life okay we are all owned the advantage 192 00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:26,519 of us working origins of life is only we 193 00:09:30,939 --> 00:09:28,560 can simplify but we have to be very 194 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:30,949 careful in the way we simplify okay 195 00:09:36,319 --> 00:09:34,410 maybe going to one type of molecule was 196 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:36,329 not the right strategy okay we need to 197 00:09:44,119 --> 00:09:39,930 go to a diversity of molecules okay to 198 00:09:46,999 --> 00:09:44,129 begin with okay so this is the core idea 199 00:09:49,129 --> 00:09:47,009 of a new perspective on origins of life 200 00:09:51,949 --> 00:09:49,139 which is the system's chemistry 201 00:09:54,009 --> 00:09:51,959 perspective I think that Martha I don't 202 00:09:58,730 --> 00:09:54,019 know about that but she will speak more 203 00:10:00,590 --> 00:09:58,740 okay your mother okay she will speak 204 00:10:03,530 --> 00:10:00,600 more about this and Sebring probably 205 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:03,540 tomorrow as well but I don't I would 206 00:10:12,350 --> 00:10:06,420 like to just touch upon a couple of you 207 00:10:13,939 --> 00:10:12,360 say research results of the research 208 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:13,949 labs that are going in this direction 209 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:18,290 the first one is Joan Sutherland and 210 00:10:23,689 --> 00:10:21,569 he's finding that hydrogen chemistry 211 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:23,699 could be a common chemistry for the 212 00:10:30,319 --> 00:10:26,130 formation of a lot of precursor will 213 00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:30,329 precursor molecules and that you know 214 00:10:38,059 --> 00:10:34,230 give you a suit of initial compounds 215 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:38,069 that could be underlying those initial 216 00:10:45,259 --> 00:10:42,569 stages okay of course if he just does 217 00:10:47,749 --> 00:10:45,269 the synthesis of it and he couples it 218 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:47,759 with with geochemistry and to some 219 00:10:51,230 --> 00:10:49,410 extent and there are a lot of criticisms 220 00:10:52,939 --> 00:10:51,240 that you can make it but i think this 221 00:10:57,410 --> 00:10:52,949 type of work is very interesting we can 222 00:10:59,629 --> 00:10:57,420 maybe discuss it longer later okay the 223 00:11:02,460 --> 00:10:59,639 other group that i would like to 224 00:11:05,619 --> 00:11:02,470 highlight the spouses group who is 225 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:05,629 showing that in principle you can run 226 00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:08,689 metabolisms without enzymes okay present 227 00:11:20,019 --> 00:11:13,839 okay in our key and type of conditions 228 00:11:21,849 --> 00:11:20,029 more recently we at last have a model 229 00:11:25,599 --> 00:11:21,859 system that is not the blue so salty 230 00:11:27,460 --> 00:11:25,609 skin reaction we have chemical 231 00:11:31,479 --> 00:11:27,470 complexity of relations and this kind of 232 00:11:33,699 --> 00:11:31,489 things working with organic compounds 233 00:11:37,479 --> 00:11:33,709 that are relevant for origins or 234 00:11:39,849 --> 00:11:37,489 metabolism okay like amides or tiles and 235 00:11:42,549 --> 00:11:39,859 these kind of things okay but the 236 00:11:44,439 --> 00:11:42,559 problem here is that you you work on the 237 00:11:47,139 --> 00:11:44,449 system and you try to find parameter 238 00:11:49,839 --> 00:11:47,149 space where you get this type of complex 239 00:11:52,419 --> 00:11:49,849 behavior without really an autonomous 240 00:11:54,819 --> 00:11:52,429 control on boundary conditions okay so 241 00:11:57,699 --> 00:11:54,829 this is its kind of setting here that 242 00:12:00,789 --> 00:11:57,709 you have here right is pushing the 243 00:12:03,669 --> 00:12:00,799 system with some syringes and to towards 244 00:12:06,009 --> 00:12:03,679 that area of parameter space where you 245 00:12:09,699 --> 00:12:06,019 get this complex interesting behavior 246 00:12:13,299 --> 00:12:09,709 okay the idea here and life on Earth 247 00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:13,309 shows us that there is a lot of 248 00:12:18,099 --> 00:12:15,470 self-organization in a living processes 249 00:12:19,899 --> 00:12:18,109 but the way that self organize those 250 00:12:22,539 --> 00:12:19,909 self-organization processes are control 251 00:12:25,299 --> 00:12:22,549 if it's an autonomous way okay so how 252 00:12:28,829 --> 00:12:25,309 does this begin okay so i think that the 253 00:12:32,499 --> 00:12:28,839 beginning of it seeing the role that 254 00:12:34,569 --> 00:12:32,509 membranes have in or in biological 255 00:12:36,719 --> 00:12:34,579 systems of course biomembranes a very 256 00:12:42,609 --> 00:12:36,729 complex type of boundary condition right 257 00:12:45,969 --> 00:12:42,619 but you could have relatively which is a 258 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:45,979 much easier type of system that you can 259 00:12:53,469 --> 00:12:48,289 get just in water okay you have a 260 00:12:56,409 --> 00:12:53,479 vesicle here and I the idea of the the 261 00:12:59,109 --> 00:12:56,419 idea that I'm gonna try to put forward 262 00:13:00,759 --> 00:12:59,119 today is that we have to envision the 263 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:00,769 whole process of origins of life as a 264 00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:03,970 plus the process of coevolution between 265 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:06,649 reaction dynamics chemistry kinetics 266 00:13:12,369 --> 00:13:10,220 okay and all the types of processes that 267 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:12,379 have to do with spatial control and and 268 00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:14,770 different types of faces okay 269 00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:18,950 and this very colloidal type of 270 00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:23,360 chemistry and MSC chemistry okay like so 271 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:25,550 this is a type of a scenario that I'm 272 00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:29,090 going to so this is just all it acid in 273 00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:31,750 water okay you get these beautiful 274 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:36,320 vesicles ok so we combine in 275 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:40,010 self-assembly self-assembly right with 276 00:13:46,330 --> 00:13:42,890 complex chemistry see what Epstein and 277 00:13:47,950 --> 00:13:46,340 these people did you know and I could I 278 00:13:49,540 --> 00:13:47,960 mentioned here everything but it could 279 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:49,550 go all the way down to cheering and you 280 00:13:58,170 --> 00:13:53,570 can see the potential of combining 281 00:14:01,330 --> 00:13:58,180 chemistry reactions with spatial 282 00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:01,340 movement with diffusion in particularly 283 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:03,710 if you put constraints on diffusion and 284 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:05,510 you control the diffusion rates of the 285 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:07,730 system I think that there is a lot you 286 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:12,110 can gain from it okay so this is the 287 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:14,690 type of environment the type of context 288 00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:16,490 okay what I think functional 289 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:18,020 relationships should start building up 290 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:20,690 okay and this is in fact where natural 291 00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:25,600 selection could actually have let's say 292 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:30,580 more of operational power to actually 293 00:14:35,890 --> 00:14:33,110 because you need a phenotypic phenotypic 294 00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:35,900 space that is wide enough okay for 295 00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:37,160 natural selection you operate if you 296 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:39,920 just operating with molecules phenotypic 297 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:43,370 space is very very limited okay and you 298 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:45,230 probably will run into many many 299 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:47,810 bottlenecks but if you start from a 300 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:53,410 scenario where you have you know wider 301 00:14:57,460 --> 00:14:55,490 possibilities in terms of molecules 302 00:14:59,140 --> 00:14:57,470 playing different types of functions in 303 00:15:01,000 --> 00:14:59,150 this type of system I think that that's 304 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:01,010 where natural selection is going to be 305 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:02,950 working ok so it's very important to 306 00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:07,060 start with with precursors okay and 307 00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:09,500 talking about precursors and the 308 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:12,380 probiotic possibility of those 309 00:15:17,710 --> 00:15:15,530 precursors i'm going to show you the 310 00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:17,720 type of work that we're doing now with 311 00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:23,120 what i think is that the most generally 312 00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:34,639 molecules that have a wider support in 313 00:15:42,019 --> 00:15:37,860 terms of probiotic possibility of those 314 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:42,029 and then some Alfie files okay and amino 315 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:45,410 acids okay so we start with really very 316 00:15:53,389 --> 00:15:50,930 basic molecular building blocks okay and 317 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:53,399 the one piece of work that i'm going to 318 00:15:59,810 --> 00:15:57,570 show you from our lab in that we must 319 00:16:02,600 --> 00:15:59,820 published last year okay has to do with 320 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:02,610 this you have an amino acid okay and if 321 00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:06,260 feasible if you do the reaction in you 322 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:09,990 activate the amino acid okay and you 323 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:11,970 create a log stress alone for example 324 00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:14,880 okay and you have this reaction that was 325 00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:16,769 very well characterized by a robber 326 00:16:23,389 --> 00:16:20,399 Pascal and his team in montpelier okay 327 00:16:25,009 --> 00:16:23,399 in which you had you are another amino 328 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:25,019 acid then you have the D peptide and 329 00:16:30,889 --> 00:16:28,470 they were trying to see what was the if 330 00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:30,899 there was any enantiomeric excess and 331 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:33,600 they found that there was a preference 332 00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,060 for L forms in water solution okay so 333 00:16:44,170 --> 00:16:38,639 that was a well-characterized reaction 334 00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,180 that they were working with and we we 335 00:16:49,790 --> 00:16:46,800 got in collaboration with them and we 336 00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:49,800 asked them to to try to do the same 337 00:16:56,689 --> 00:16:52,230 reaction but in the presence of vesicles 338 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:56,699 okay and for example this is a this is a 339 00:17:00,500 --> 00:16:58,130 graph that summarizes the type of 340 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:00,510 results that we got in which you have 341 00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:02,490 decanoic acid here which is a fatty acid 342 00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:06,140 that self-assembles into one of those 343 00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:09,480 vesicles that were showing you similar 344 00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:10,679 vesicles that I was showing you in the 345 00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:12,900 previous crap okay so you see that as 346 00:17:18,490 --> 00:17:15,480 you increase the concentration of 347 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:18,500 decanoic acid okay you get to the point 348 00:17:24,409 --> 00:17:20,910 to get to a point when you have a like a 349 00:17:27,439 --> 00:17:24,419 phase transition here a change in the 350 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:27,449 behavior and this is actually the the 351 00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:29,130 point they create what is called the 352 00:17:32,539 --> 00:17:30,960 critical aggregation concentration is 353 00:17:35,419 --> 00:17:32,549 the point in the concentration of the 354 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:35,429 fatty acid in which is saturates the 355 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:37,570 water solution and 356 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:40,090 starts forming those vesicles okay so 357 00:17:44,879 --> 00:17:42,190 something happens when when the vesicles 358 00:17:47,519 --> 00:17:44,889 are formed right below here you just 359 00:17:51,779 --> 00:17:47,529 have mono morning what the solution okay 360 00:17:55,820 --> 00:17:51,789 so it is an above here you have the 361 00:17:59,610 --> 00:17:55,830 vesicles okay so also we see that the 362 00:18:03,120 --> 00:17:59,620 astronomic ratio here goes down so the 363 00:18:05,659 --> 00:18:03,130 effects for el that we saw in water 364 00:18:09,539 --> 00:18:05,669 solution when the concentration of 0 are 365 00:18:13,409 --> 00:18:09,549 somehow counteracted okay and we have a 366 00:18:15,330 --> 00:18:13,419 more hetero keidel type of of result 367 00:18:18,389 --> 00:18:15,340 here but the important thing is that the 368 00:18:21,930 --> 00:18:18,399 yield of the reaction okay the yield of 369 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:21,940 the reaction goes up and quite two or 370 00:18:27,389 --> 00:18:24,190 three fold okay so we see that in the 371 00:18:31,580 --> 00:18:27,399 presence of those vesicles somehow the 372 00:18:34,289 --> 00:18:31,590 formation of the vesicle helps in the 373 00:18:37,499 --> 00:18:34,299 reaction wheel of the formation of a d 374 00:18:41,249 --> 00:18:37,509 peptide dipeptide okay so we checked it 375 00:18:45,539 --> 00:18:41,259 and we saw that we did many different 376 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:45,549 types of controls and instead of using 377 00:18:51,299 --> 00:18:48,100 photo and instead of using fatty acids 378 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:51,309 we used phospholipids also negatively 379 00:18:55,399 --> 00:18:52,570 charged phospholipids we didn't get 380 00:18:57,869 --> 00:18:55,409 Reese also the result was specific for 381 00:19:02,220 --> 00:18:57,879 fatty acids okay so which are the 382 00:19:04,590 --> 00:19:02,230 precursors of phospholipids ok so we 383 00:19:07,619 --> 00:19:04,600 also did some experiments in an organic 384 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:07,629 solution and we thought that the check 385 00:19:16,619 --> 00:19:13,840 in for different types of different 386 00:19:18,629 --> 00:19:16,629 types of systems here without the 387 00:19:20,639 --> 00:19:18,639 formation of the vesicles vesicle 388 00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:20,649 formation only takes place in water okay 389 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:21,990 so when you are in organic solvents 390 00:19:27,629 --> 00:19:24,250 there are no vesicles but there is an 391 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:27,639 effect okay and the effect based on 392 00:19:34,289 --> 00:19:30,700 these results is is related to the polar 393 00:19:36,299 --> 00:19:34,299 head more than the length of the fatty 394 00:19:41,310 --> 00:19:36,309 acid okay so there's something then 395 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:41,320 happening that is somehow related to the 396 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:43,090 formation of the vesicle but not only 397 00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:45,970 okay so that's why we call to the double 398 00:19:51,159 --> 00:19:48,940 role okay because it's important that 399 00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:51,169 they generate the kind of 400 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:53,340 hydrophobic environment for the reaction 401 00:19:58,909 --> 00:19:55,530 to take place okay but at the same time 402 00:20:01,850 --> 00:19:58,919 there is catalysis happening okay so 403 00:20:03,530 --> 00:20:01,860 it's a in fact through some other 404 00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:03,540 experiments that I don't have time to go 405 00:20:12,350 --> 00:20:08,820 into details of them we showed that the 406 00:20:14,539 --> 00:20:12,360 is probably an acetate acid base 407 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:14,549 catalysis happening at the at the 408 00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:18,330 interface there okay so first thing to 409 00:20:23,450 --> 00:20:21,240 provide an hydrophobic environment for 410 00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:23,460 the reaction to take place second as we 411 00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:26,100 bake analogies to actually help in the 412 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:30,900 reaction okay so second I said first by 413 00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:34,790 the second second take-home message is 414 00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:38,990 worth trying with precursors okay 415 00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:41,580 instead of using phospholipids we used 416 00:20:47,930 --> 00:20:45,240 fatty acid and it worked better instead 417 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:47,940 of using a protein we're using i don't i 418 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:49,650 know it said the update I'm that 419 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:52,710 dipeptide it's very humble and molecule 420 00:20:58,039 --> 00:20:55,650 okay but I think it's very important to 421 00:21:02,500 --> 00:20:58,049 continue working with really low 422 00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:02,510 complexity molecules if you work with 423 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:05,460 with the polymers polymers I think are 424 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:08,210 the result of the whole process of of 425 00:21:12,860 --> 00:21:11,010 origins of life or they biopolymers okay 426 00:21:15,289 --> 00:21:12,870 so it's important to work with 427 00:21:17,870 --> 00:21:15,299 biopolymers to know the properties of 428 00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:17,880 those molecules but i don't think i'll 429 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:20,460 be a bit provocative here I don't think 430 00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:22,770 you are doing anything in terms of 431 00:21:28,970 --> 00:21:25,400 origins of life if you're working with 432 00:21:30,919 --> 00:21:28,980 the results what I think are the results 433 00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:30,929 molecules are the result of the process 434 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:39,120 okay so enough I could go a bit further 435 00:21:48,650 --> 00:21:46,200 there but anyway so luckily the soft 436 00:21:54,130 --> 00:21:48,660 rock and other groups are working in 437 00:21:59,659 --> 00:21:58,130 this is really a new new new work that 438 00:22:02,330 --> 00:21:59,669 is very interesting and very related 439 00:22:04,130 --> 00:22:02,340 instead of having the oxide alone as we 440 00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:04,140 were doing they are doing the NC 441 00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:08,700 CA ok but way to activate the amino acid 442 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:12,960 to get a dipeptide ok but maybe is 443 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:14,730 probably because Jack Shaw start giving 444 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:17,730 actually working hard enough on a 445 00:22:22,220 --> 00:22:20,550 definition of life that he's doing all 446 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:22,230 these very interesting work and I don't 447 00:22:27,230 --> 00:22:24,570 know if you've noticed but in an all the 448 00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:27,240 abstract he needs to mention RNA RNA I 449 00:22:31,790 --> 00:22:30,030 mean even if he's doing very interesting 450 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:31,800 stuff on other things that I haven't 451 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:34,530 don't have anything to do with the RNA 452 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:37,530 world okay but that's why sometimes it's 453 00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:40,050 good to do some conceptual clarification 454 00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:43,440 and maybe our obsessions at least we 455 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:45,660 make them clear okay from the beginning 456 00:22:55,910 --> 00:22:52,020 ok ok so to start how much time do we 457 00:22:58,550 --> 00:22:55,920 have I'm still green okay I'm gonna so 458 00:23:00,320 --> 00:22:58,560 I'm still okay 10 minutes or so okay so 459 00:23:03,020 --> 00:23:00,330 i'm going to show you another instead of 460 00:23:04,790 --> 00:23:03,030 experimental part i'm going to do 461 00:23:07,370 --> 00:23:04,800 something that work that is 462 00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:07,380 computational okay but again in the same 463 00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:10,950 lines okay so the idea here is that we 464 00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:12,900 would have some sort of functional 465 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:16,110 initial functional integration okay of 466 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:18,570 precursor molecules in which we don't 467 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:20,310 only take into account kinetic control 468 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:22,110 but also station controller and if 469 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:23,790 possible also thermodynamic viability 470 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,090 vice is complicated okay there are some 471 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:29,970 people this is a very interesting 472 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:32,850 exception of synthetic biology i don't 473 00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:34,820 know if you've heard about the work of 474 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:38,190 Nilla divided i am ok with very 475 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:41,970 interesting work related precisely with 476 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:44,850 this chemistry starting with precursors 477 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:47,490 ok and trying to move from chemistry 478 00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:56,240 molecules we are not taking this step 479 00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:01,520 from chemistry right and here they also 480 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:04,500 couple to some extent spatial control 481 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:08,570 with kinetic control a catalyst and 482 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:11,370 maybe so in order to move forward we 483 00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:14,730 also interesting to understand the 484 00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:16,580 systems we use 485 00:24:23,710 --> 00:24:19,220 platform that was developed by by my 486 00:24:25,539 --> 00:24:23,720 colleague saga valley and i won't go 487 00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:25,549 into the details of this but basically 488 00:24:29,289 --> 00:24:26,990 what we are doing is trying to 489 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:29,299 understand what what are the 490 00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:30,769 implications are high in a reaction 491 00:24:37,630 --> 00:24:34,760 chemistry inside here that is actually 492 00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:37,640 compartmentalized okay and in what sense 493 00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:41,390 the compartment can be a nightmare for 494 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:44,720 the chemistry or it could help lead the 495 00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:47,390 chemistry somewhere else I think closer 496 00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:50,380 and closer to biological systems okay so 497 00:24:56,529 --> 00:24:54,070 sometimes the compartment can can be 498 00:24:58,570 --> 00:24:56,539 counteractive in the sense of killing a 499 00:25:01,080 --> 00:24:58,580 chemistry that in water solution could 500 00:25:05,379 --> 00:25:01,090 be interesting but some of the times and 501 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:05,389 dull a rather dull chemistry can become 502 00:25:10,389 --> 00:25:07,630 very interesting in a compartmentalized 503 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:10,399 system if you take the dynamic 504 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:11,809 properties of the compartment into 505 00:25:20,139 --> 00:25:16,330 account ok so imagine that you have a 506 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:20,149 proto metabolic type of cycle this would 507 00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,490 be a la kaufman this could be a la Rosa 508 00:25:33,399 --> 00:25:24,799 okay this could represent a simplified 509 00:25:36,460 --> 00:25:33,409 version of a oh sorry this would be I 510 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:36,470 know that is a bit too too much saying 511 00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:39,110 this but this could be an autotrophic 512 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:41,000 type of simplified model of an 513 00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:43,370 autotrophic let up proto metabolism okay 514 00:25:50,139 --> 00:25:47,200 and this would be had a like 515 00:25:52,299 --> 00:25:50,149 heterotrophic type of of metabolism and 516 00:25:54,220 --> 00:25:52,309 we encapsulate them and we compare what 517 00:25:58,210 --> 00:25:54,230 happens to them in different conditions 518 00:26:01,019 --> 00:25:58,220 okay we do basically what we are going 519 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:01,029 to be using here is the fact that this 520 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:05,210 set of reactions can synthesize okay a 521 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:08,450 lipid of alpha file molecule that is 522 00:26:15,009 --> 00:26:10,730 going to get integrated into the into 523 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:15,019 the compartment okay and by changing so 524 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:18,110 this reaction or this one here will 525 00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:20,809 create will synthesize and lipids I 526 00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:23,120 would go into the into the membrane here 527 00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:25,039 and the membrane will change its 528 00:26:29,789 --> 00:26:27,679 composition by changing its composition 529 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:29,799 it will change 530 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:32,710 its properties among other things is 531 00:26:37,859 --> 00:26:35,110 permeability okay and the idea here is 532 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:37,869 that by checking experimentally the 533 00:26:47,299 --> 00:26:41,320 permeability of the system okay we see 534 00:26:49,109 --> 00:26:47,309 that mixed membranes made of mixed 535 00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:49,119 components okay had a higher 536 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:51,580 permeability okay and in fact if you are 537 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:53,769 in this case it was lauric acid with the 538 00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:56,710 dlp see that which were checking you see 539 00:27:01,889 --> 00:26:58,690 here that if you have a mixed system 540 00:27:04,919 --> 00:27:01,899 here the permeability has a non linear 541 00:27:06,779 --> 00:27:04,929 nonlinear behavior and it's in the 542 00:27:09,239 --> 00:27:06,789 middle somewhere in the middle here for 543 00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:09,249 mixed composition membranes where you 544 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:11,230 get a higher permeability so the idea is 545 00:27:17,129 --> 00:27:15,070 that we usually make use of this we run 546 00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:17,139 the simulation so we saw that indeed 547 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:20,320 when you start imagine that you start 548 00:27:25,349 --> 00:27:23,289 with a fatty acid vesicle the initial 549 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:25,359 scaffolding okay and then there is a 550 00:27:31,259 --> 00:27:28,330 chemistry that is able to synthesize a 551 00:27:34,590 --> 00:27:31,269 slightly more complex alpha file that 552 00:27:37,499 --> 00:27:34,600 goes into the membrane that will change 553 00:27:39,539 --> 00:27:37,509 the properties of the membrane we 554 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:39,549 increase this permeability and that will 555 00:27:45,779 --> 00:27:42,609 help for example these nutrients here 556 00:27:48,749 --> 00:27:45,789 get into the into the system and it will 557 00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:48,759 make the metabolism run faster okay and 558 00:27:53,820 --> 00:27:51,039 it will divide faster as well so that's 559 00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:53,830 what we see here in this graph here both 560 00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,200 for those the two types of metal proto 561 00:28:01,379 --> 00:27:58,960 metabolism you have an increase in the 562 00:28:06,539 --> 00:28:01,389 reaction rates here and a decrease in 563 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:06,549 the reproduction time okay so a change 564 00:28:10,289 --> 00:28:08,049 like that could be a selective advantage 565 00:28:13,229 --> 00:28:10,299 in a scenario like this ok so there are 566 00:28:15,659 --> 00:28:13,239 many features that you can play with in 567 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:15,669 a scenario like this in which you're 568 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:18,730 being more dynamic and you are taking 569 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:20,710 into account more the organization of 570 00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:25,090 the system so i'm orange already so 571 00:28:32,639 --> 00:28:29,919 let's try to start wrapping up so 572 00:28:36,899 --> 00:28:32,649 compartmentation does not make life easy 573 00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:36,909 and we have other other papers in which 574 00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:39,340 we see how compartmentation can be a 575 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:41,320 pain okay 576 00:28:47,129 --> 00:28:43,980 life is complex so the sooner the better 577 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:47,139 read already okay so let me reconcile 578 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:51,730 with Jax before we I finish and say then 579 00:28:55,019 --> 00:28:53,289 I agree completely with this okay 580 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:55,029 although proto cellular structure poses 581 00:28:59,180 --> 00:28:57,130 more problems initially it is actually 582 00:29:02,370 --> 00:28:59,190 simpler to solve these problems up front 583 00:29:04,350 --> 00:29:02,380 then leave them till later when they 584 00:29:06,629 --> 00:29:04,360 could become completely intractable 585 00:29:09,029 --> 00:29:06,639 that's that's what I think is happening 586 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:09,039 okay you need to deal with compartments 587 00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:11,110 first because otherwise it's going to be 588 00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:15,809 impossible okay so I leave you with this 589 00:29:23,070 --> 00:29:20,559 nice bubbles in which we think that go 590 00:29:26,249 --> 00:29:23,080 together with I mean there is a lot of 591 00:29:27,779 --> 00:29:26,259 reflection and conceptual developments 592 00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:27,789 as well that go together with this we 593 00:29:31,409 --> 00:29:29,470 think we can start with functions we 594 00:29:33,629 --> 00:29:31,419 should go to regulation and we should go 595 00:29:38,249 --> 00:29:33,639 to information but this is too long a 596 00:29:39,539 --> 00:29:38,259 story for today we need to having we 597 00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:39,549 need to take into account the 598 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:41,950 physiological type of cone and the 599 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:44,590 evolutionary cone at the same time okay 600 00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:48,370 so this is the type of idea that when I 601 00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:49,870 say that the origins of I should be 602 00:29:55,049 --> 00:29:52,120 taken as a the process of development of 603 00:29:58,889 --> 00:29:55,059 protocell systems we start with very 604 00:30:01,680 --> 00:29:58,899 simple vesicles and these leads you to a 605 00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:01,690 different evolutionary Cohen here with 606 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:04,629 and then as the as the vesicles change 607 00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:05,980 and they become more complex the 608 00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:09,580 evolutionary kong also changes okay so 609 00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:11,440 two dimensions have to be taken into 610 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:16,480 account and to finish I so it's not just 611 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:19,090 a question of having just the cell but 612 00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:22,450 what the pot the proto cellular and the 613 00:30:27,389 --> 00:30:25,720 individual idea but it's also have taken 614 00:30:30,419 --> 00:30:27,399 into account us as the different stages 615 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:30,429 in origins of life unfold is there's 616 00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:32,129 going to be an unfolding of different 617 00:30:37,379 --> 00:30:34,720 say interactions at the collective level 618 00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:37,389 between those protocells ok so the 619 00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:41,919 scenario is complex ok and but I think 620 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:45,220 we have to face it and I'm finishing now 621 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:47,289 right with this code that i think is 622 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:51,090 inspiring Alex works these days 623 00:30:55,049 --> 00:30:54,010 following below its of course sustain 624 00:30:57,149 --> 00:30:55,059 life is a property 625 00:30:59,399 --> 00:30:57,159 of an ecological system rather than a 626 00:31:01,200 --> 00:30:59,409 single organism or a species so thank 627 00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:01,210 you for your attention and I'm ready to 628 00:31:18,570 --> 00:31:08,440 take questions sorry okay so we have 629 00:31:27,549 --> 00:31:24,039 thanks cap out nice as ever and the how 630 00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:27,559 do you define them compartment because a 631 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:29,630 lot of focus in a lot of people a little 632 00:31:35,890 --> 00:31:32,450 abscess on by layers with an a kiss in 633 00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:35,900 turn into internal the dieter in my 634 00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:37,220 experience certainly about the most 635 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:39,590 difficult ones to handle it's much 636 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:41,809 easier to do myself so coacervate is 637 00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:45,110 even simpler still at the is there in 638 00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:48,350 your view of progression from any of 639 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:51,440 those structures towards the sort of 640 00:31:59,230 --> 00:31:54,410 cell like bilayer type assemblies 641 00:32:02,440 --> 00:31:59,240 receive these days in ok that's a very 642 00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:02,450 good question and I think that my cells 643 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:05,150 and other types of supramolecular 644 00:32:10,330 --> 00:32:07,850 structures would be around okay so also 645 00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:10,340 for the dynamics of vesicles my toes are 646 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:12,910 very important for different types of so 647 00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:16,250 colloidal systems are complicated and 648 00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:18,080 it's not just a single type of of 649 00:32:25,210 --> 00:32:21,919 supramolecular chemistry super molecular 650 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:25,220 structure that I'm but the reason why I 651 00:32:31,890 --> 00:32:28,130 focus on on vesicles is because they 652 00:32:35,169 --> 00:32:31,900 give you a continuity line with biology 653 00:32:38,110 --> 00:32:35,179 that I mean because the thing is when 654 00:32:40,390 --> 00:32:38,120 you you have to have a one leg in 655 00:32:44,590 --> 00:32:40,400 chemistry and another leg in biology 656 00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:44,600 okay and I think that we need to you 657 00:32:51,159 --> 00:32:49,190 know bring the two together and whereas 658 00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:51,169 I think that there are many processes 659 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:52,700 that could be very interesting to 660 00:32:58,780 --> 00:32:55,570 explore in a colloidal system that is 661 00:32:59,919 --> 00:32:58,790 very different from my cell okay there 662 00:33:02,680 --> 00:32:59,929 are some other things like we should 663 00:33:06,340 --> 00:33:02,690 explore that are closer to the cell okay 664 00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,350 and that's why I focus my research on on 665 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:08,000 vesicles being aware that I don't know 666 00:33:12,669 --> 00:33:10,010 cooperates for example could be an 667 00:33:17,710 --> 00:33:12,679 option initially and some things could 668 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:17,720 happen there but my let's say my 669 00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:21,890 research bias is more for trying to get 670 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:29,880 so 671 00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:34,900 I agree that maybe vesicles could be 672 00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:38,640 initially but complicated to deal with 673 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:42,520 nobody sells how to divide physicals 674 00:33:49,950 --> 00:33:45,370 adequately and you can enter via my cell 675 00:33:52,020 --> 00:33:49,960 and AG lab yeah but yeah I mean vesicles 676 00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:52,030 adequately okay the division of vesicles 677 00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:54,430 is complicated and and I can show 678 00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:00,120 ourselves do that ok so these paper here 679 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:03,640 we are trying to deal with that ok how 680 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:06,730 you could get the kinetic conditions so 681 00:34:10,889 --> 00:34:08,890 that you have a chemistry that is within 682 00:34:12,780 --> 00:34:10,899 the compartment that makes the 683 00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:12,790 compartment grow and what are the 684 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:15,250 conditions for the compartment to get 685 00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:19,570 you know division so we I know it's hard 686 00:34:27,570 --> 00:34:23,320 but we are trying to get there and at 687 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:27,580 some point we life got there which is 688 00:34:33,690 --> 00:34:31,330 the exact route to their I don't know 689 00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:33,700 you have an alternative may I discuss 690 00:34:38,490 --> 00:34:35,679 these things with people like Milan like 691 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:38,500 working more classified type of all and 692 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,330 how do you get from quality to the cell 693 00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:42,159 it's not it's not trivial at all either 694 00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:48,100 Oh for myself thanks hey Kaiba so why do 695 00:34:53,370 --> 00:34:50,500 you think it's easier to start with 696 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:53,380 vesicles because I I never said easier 697 00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:57,610 you're easier earlier than later bunnies 698 00:35:02,580 --> 00:35:00,400 here I didn't say no okay so you think 699 00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:02,590 it's easier to have them later what are 700 00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:04,060 the benefits of them early I actually 701 00:35:10,110 --> 00:35:05,920 think it's much easier to get life 702 00:35:12,540 --> 00:35:10,120 started without vesicle without vesicles 703 00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:12,550 I think they came later also like you're 704 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:14,260 referring to the opposite of this kind 705 00:35:20,610 --> 00:35:17,350 of modeling we also it's a it's a model 706 00:35:22,740 --> 00:35:20,620 about having some vesicle and then 707 00:35:24,570 --> 00:35:22,750 things happening no now psychical 708 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:24,580 outside yeah well or some kind of 709 00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:26,470 compartment and all compartment no 710 00:35:31,620 --> 00:35:29,860 compartment only limited diffusion ok 711 00:35:33,330 --> 00:35:31,630 let me to diffusion yeah because I think 712 00:35:35,370 --> 00:35:33,340 you know what many things like I have 713 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:35,380 any limiting diffusion whereas there are 714 00:35:38,730 --> 00:35:36,970 many things that can happen in limited 715 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:38,740 diffusion and your surfaces and all 716 00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:41,250 these types of of chemistry's 717 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:43,620 I agree right but I think that that 718 00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:45,690 solves a lot of the problems that Jack 719 00:35:51,230 --> 00:35:48,900 szostak is eliciting sells for early on 720 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:51,240 I think it makes it a lot easier first 721 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:53,910 to get life going if we don't have to 722 00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:57,810 compartmentalize it could be it depends 723 00:36:04,450 --> 00:36:01,440 on your I gotta go back to my site it 724 00:36:09,350 --> 00:36:04,460 depends on whether you want to get to 725 00:36:11,810 --> 00:36:09,360 let me check easy one if your objective 726 00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:11,820 is to get to a population of genetically 727 00:36:17,810 --> 00:36:15,230 instructed cellulite metabolisms look at 728 00:36:19,310 --> 00:36:17,820 you are really because that's something 729 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:19,320 that I want to discuss with jack and 730 00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:21,930 jack keep speaking about cellular life 731 00:36:27,410 --> 00:36:24,420 cellular life vanilla life we have to a 732 00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:27,420 life and cellular service mean it's a 733 00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:30,300 redundancy okay well i don't know but 734 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:32,340 even linear system depends what I'm 735 00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:33,930 saying is for me it's a redundancy for 736 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:37,200 some people if you think that life is 737 00:36:43,310 --> 00:36:40,050 something different and life could 738 00:36:45,770 --> 00:36:43,320 happen without cells and like would be 739 00:36:47,780 --> 00:36:45,780 just a replicating a molecule or 740 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:47,790 something like that then maybe you're 741 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:49,770 right but well I actually think Luke I 742 00:36:54,530 --> 00:36:51,570 didn't have compartmentalization yet 743 00:36:56,990 --> 00:36:54,540 okay lately the universality that gives 744 00:36:58,520 --> 00:36:57,000 us Lucas has to do with nucleic acids as 745 00:37:00,020 --> 00:36:58,530 it is protein it does not need to be 746 00:37:01,550 --> 00:37:00,030 with memory to be seen places in the 747 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:01,560 same in the same way as you saying that 748 00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:03,390 for look at ATP synthesis were there 749 00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:09,480 Aluko ATP synthesis no well okay we can 750 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:12,540 discuss that Luca had compartments and 751 00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:21,570 quite sure about that yes thank you very 752 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:25,310 much I enjoyed very much but I couldn't 753 00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:29,130 understand that scenario or you're in a 754 00:37:38,890 --> 00:37:34,070 story you should therefore steps of 755 00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:38,900 scenario from the profile to depict off 756 00:37:47,690 --> 00:37:45,300 next one yeah that's why 757 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:47,700 so it is work in progress and we are 758 00:37:53,030 --> 00:37:50,850 yeah but they dock ritual I want to ask 759 00:37:56,660 --> 00:37:53,040 you to watch you on stage or your 760 00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:56,670 research my research is down here in 761 00:38:02,120 --> 00:37:59,760 this one it's down here okay okay so but 762 00:38:04,370 --> 00:38:02,130 I'm very aware of all the difficulties 763 00:38:07,730 --> 00:38:04,380 that come later right I couldn't 764 00:38:11,630 --> 00:38:07,740 understand how your differentiate the 765 00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:11,640 first category of a from the other 766 00:38:18,620 --> 00:38:14,760 researchers work what with the other 767 00:38:21,350 --> 00:38:18,630 research right okay so basically what we 768 00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:21,360 are taking here is a really a bottom-up 769 00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:23,910 approach okay in which you start with 770 00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:26,760 building blocks that are probiotic Lee 771 00:38:33,410 --> 00:38:31,200 possible alphas files amino acids very 772 00:38:35,150 --> 00:38:33,420 simple things and you will start from 773 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:35,160 the bottom up and you start with this 774 00:38:38,810 --> 00:38:36,450 type of system in which you have 775 00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,820 vesicles under what I call here 776 00:38:43,250 --> 00:38:40,800 environmental control in some sense okay 777 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:43,260 there you have the scaffolding and then 778 00:38:49,610 --> 00:38:48,210 right and then you couple these with the 779 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:49,620 chemistry this is the second example 780 00:38:55,930 --> 00:38:51,450 that I was talking about when you have a 781 00:38:59,090 --> 00:38:55,940 chemistry that is coupled with vertical 782 00:39:01,640 --> 00:38:59,100 dynamics okay and there is a different 783 00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:01,650 stage and then you can have taught 784 00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:05,880 ourselves with some kind of more 785 00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:08,880 elaborated physiology here where you 786 00:39:13,790 --> 00:39:11,940 have not only for example template 787 00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:13,800 mechanisms or other types of Canada 788 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:15,870 telemetric mechanisms but you also have 789 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:18,330 regulation relative so the more complex 790 00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:21,930 the unit is here then I don't know 791 00:39:26,810 --> 00:39:24,150 different types of evolutionary columns 792 00:39:29,540 --> 00:39:26,820 appear this is work in progress i'm not 793 00:39:32,990 --> 00:39:29,550 i'm not suggesting that i have any 794 00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:33,000 results related to this okay but and 795 00:39:37,580 --> 00:39:34,320 then when you have a phenotype genotype 796 00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:37,590 decoupling which would be sorry please 797 00:39:43,130 --> 00:39:41,310 bit here at the end okay you will have a 798 00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:43,140 different type of evolution this would 799 00:39:46,970 --> 00:39:45,300 be open-ended evolution whereas these 800 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:46,980 types of evolution that you have here 801 00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:50,610 are not open ended yet okay so this kind 802 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:53,310 of scheme ok so you we need to actually 803 00:39:58,940 --> 00:39:55,410 characterize this evolutionary cones 804 00:40:02,870 --> 00:39:58,950 here where where you don't have by all 805 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:02,880 logical evolution as such I hope you 806 00:40:14,420 --> 00:40:12,570 could take it kept good luck yes kappa 807 00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:14,430 you said you need a leg in biology or 808 00:40:19,359 --> 00:40:16,500 leg in chemistry but don't you need a 809 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:19,369 leg in theology and do you try some of 810 00:40:27,770 --> 00:40:23,250 experiments in a with ion from minerals 811 00:40:30,250 --> 00:40:27,780 oh absolutely I agree that have to do a 812 00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:30,260 leg so for whatever I want it has to be 813 00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:36,060 geology as well so again I think it's 814 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:38,310 really important to whenever you have a 815 00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:41,010 system to actually put it in the context 816 00:40:48,620 --> 00:40:43,020 of geochemical context where it makes 817 00:40:49,730 --> 00:40:48,630 sense okay but again my bias is a bit to 818 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:49,740 try to understand biological 819 00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:51,570 organization and how that biological 820 00:40:58,880 --> 00:40:54,960 organization started and I think there 821 00:41:03,020 --> 00:40:58,890 are many things that play functional 822 00:41:05,690 --> 00:41:03,030 roles that come from geo okay but I'm 823 00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:05,700 I'm kind of interested in how those 824 00:41:09,890 --> 00:41:08,040 things got integrated into these other 825 00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:09,900 dynamics that is a biological dynamics 826 00:41:17,870 --> 00:41:14,480 in but it's not a satisfactory answer 827 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:17,880 i'm sorry it's just a question of focus 828 00:41:21,050 --> 00:41:19,530 I act but I agree completely that it 829 00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,060 should be one leg should be also in 830 00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:27,590 [Applause]